Section VI

Conversation with Bhaktas about Essence of Brahman and Primeval Power in Dakshineswar Kali Temple Talk on Vidyasagar and Keshab Sen

Chapter One

The third day of the dark fortnight in the month of Ashadha, 22 July 1883. It is Sunday. The bhaktas have come again to see Sri Ramakrishna Deva. Generally they cannot come on other days of the week. On Sundays they have leisure to come. Adhar, Rakhal and M. arrived from Calcutta at the Kali Temple in a hired carriage at about one or two in the afternoon. Thakur Sri Ramakrishna has taken a little rest after his midday meal. Mani Mullick and some other bhaktas are also seated in the room.

The temple of Radhakanta and the temple of Bhavatarini (saviour of mankind from bonds of the world) are located in the eastern part of the big courtyard of Rasmani’s Kali Temple. In its western region   are    the   twelve Shiva temples. Right to the north of the row of the Shiva temples is located Sri Ramakrishna Deva’s room. To the west of this room is a semicircular verandah. Standing there to the west he watches the Ganga. In the middle of the embankment of the Ganga and the verandah is a stretch of land having a flower garden of the temple garden. It extends very far ­ to the boundary of the garden in the south and to the Panchavati in the north where Thakur Sri Ramakrishna had practised austerities. And also up to both the entrances of the garden in the east. On the side of the Paramahansa Deva’s room, there are a few krishnachuda trees (poinciana regia, or gulmohar). Nearby are gardenia, kokilax and white and red oleanders. On the inner wall of the room hang pictures of gods. Among them is also the picture of Christ rescuing the drowning Peter by holding his hand. And there is a stone-idol of the Buddha too. Sri Ramakrishna is seated on the wooden cot facing north. The bhaktas are seated some on the floor, some on a mat and the others on asanas (small carpets). All of them are gazing at the great man’s blissful image. Not far from the room, along the western side of the embankment flows the holy river Ganga towards the south. It appears that the strong current of the rainy season is gushing to meet the sea, casting a glance on the meditation room of the great saint and touching on its way.

Mani   Mullick is  an old  Brahmo  bhakta sixty or sixty five years old. A few days ago he went to visit Kashi dham (place of pilgrimage). Today he has come to see Thakur and is giving him an account of his visit to Kashi.

Mani Mullick — And I met another sadhu. He said, ‘Without control over the sense organs nothing can be achieved! What avail it is merely repeating Lord, Lord?’

Sri Ramakrishna — Do you know what they believe? One must first practise sadhana (spiritual disciplines): Shama (mental restraint), dama (self control over sense organs) and titiksha (forbearance). These people strive for Nirvana. They are Vedantins. They only meditate upon this ­ ‘Brahman is real and the world illusory.’ It is an extremely difficult path. If the world is illusory, then you too are illusory. Those who say so are also illusory and what they say is also like a dream. It is a very distant matter.

“Do you know how it is? It is like burning camphor that leaves no residual. However, when you burn firewood you still get ash as its residue. After the ultimate reasoning comes samadhi. Then there is no awareness of ‘I’, ‘You’ and ‘the universe’.”

 

Meetings with Pundit Padmalochan and Vidyasagar

“Padmalochan was a man of great spiritual knowledge. But I used to utter ‘Mother, Mother.’  Even then he had great respect for me. Padmalochan was the court pundit of the king of Burdwan. He came to Calcutta and was staying in a garden near Kamarhati. I felt some desire to visit the Pundit. I sent Hriday to see whether he had ego or not. I was told that the Pundit had no ego. He met me. Such a great jnani and such a pundit, yet he began to weep on hearing Rama Prasad’s song from me! The satisfaction that I found in conversing with him, I never found it elsewhere. He said to me,  ‘Give up your desire for the company of devotees. Otherwise, all sorts of people will bring your downfall.’ Once he had a written discussion with Utsavananda, the guru of Vaishnava Charan. He then said to me, ‘Hear something about it.’ In a meeting a discussion was going on ­ who was bigger, Shiva or Brahma. At the end the pundits consulted Padmalochan. Padmalochan was so guileless that he replied, ‘Not any of my fourteen ancestors ever saw Shiva or Brahma.’ Upon hearing the renunciation of ‘woman and gold,’ he said to me one day, ‘Why have you given them up? This is money and that is clay, such a feeling of difference is the result of ignorance.’ What could I say to him? I said, ‘I know not brother! I don’t relish money and the like.’ ”

 

Charities of Vidyasagar, but gold lies buried within

“There was a pundit who was very vain. He did not accept the form of the Lord. But who can understand the Lord’s ways? He granted him His vision in the form of Adya Shakti (Primeval Power). The pundit remained unconscious for a long time. After regaining a little consciousness he just uttered, ‘Ka! Ka! Ka!’ (that is Kali) ­ just that syllable.”

A Bhakta — Sir, you have met Vidyasagar. How did you find him?

Sri Ramakrishna — Vidyasagar has scholarship, he has kindness but he lacks insight. Gold lies buried within him. Had he discovered this gold, so much of external activity that he does would have been reduced; finally, he would have given it up completely. Had he known that the Lord resides inside within the heart, his mind would have gone in meditation and contemplation on Him. Having performed nishkama karma (selfless work) for a long time, some people develop dispassion in the end and their mind goes to God ­ the mind gets absorbed in the Lord.

“The kind of work Ishwara Vidyasagar does is very good. Kindness is very good. There is, however, a great difference between daya (kindness) and maya. Kindness is good, maya is not good. Maya is love for one’s own near and dear ones ­ wife, son, brother, sister, brother’s son, sister’s son, father and mother ­ love for these. Kindness, however, is the equal affection for all beings.”   

Chapter Two

‘Guna treya vyatiriktam Sachchidananda swarupa.’

[The real nature of Sachchidananda is beyond the three gunas.]

 

Brahman is beyond the three gunas, He is beyond speech

M. — Is daya (kindness) also bondage?

Sri Ramakrishna — That is a very distant concept. Kindness results from sattvaguna. Sattvaguna preserves, rajoguna creates and tamoguna destroys. But Brahman is beyond all the three gunas of sattva, rajas and tamas. It is beyond prakriti (nature).

“The gunas cannot really reach where Brahman abides. They are like robbers who cannot go out in the open. They are afraid lest they should be arrested. Sattva, rajas and tamas all the three gunas are robbers. Let me tell you a story ­

“Once a man was going through a forest when three robbers came and caught hold of him. They robbed him of all he possessed. One of the robbers said, ‘Why keep this man alive now?’ Saying so, he came forward with a sword to hack him. The second robber then said,  ‘No brother, what use killing him? Let us tie his hands and feet and leave him here.’ Then tying his hands and feet the robbers left him there and went away.  After a while one of them returned and said, ‘Ah! you are suffering a lot!  Let me free you from the knots.’ Untying his bonds he said,  ‘Come with me, I will take you to the main road.’ After a long time when they reached the main road, the robber said, ‘Take this road. See that is your house.’ This man then said to the robber, ‘Sir, you have been very good to me. Please come with me to my house.’ The robber said, ‘No, I cannot go there. The police will come to know of it.’

“The world itself is a forest. In this forest sattva, rajas and tamas all the three gunas are robbers. They rob the jiva of his tattva jnana (spiritual knowledge). Tamoguna destroys the jiva, rajoguna binds him to the world. But the sattvaguna saves him from rajas and tamas. By taking refuge in sattvaguna one is saved from lust, anger and such other evils of tamas. Besides, sattvaguna cuts asunder the bonds of the world also. But even the sattvaguna is a robber, it cannot give the tattva jnana (highest knowledge). However, it puts you on the road to the Supreme Abode. Putting you on the road it says, ‘Just see, this is your house.’ Sattvaguna remains at a great distance from the Brahmajnana.

“What Brahman is cannot be expressed by the word of mouth. He who attains Brahman, cannot give information about Him. There is a saying, ‘The ship never returns once it has reached the black waters.’

“Four friends while roaming about saw a place enclosed by a wall. The wall was very high. They were very curious to see what was inside it. One of these men climbed up the wall. As he peeped inside, he exclaimed in great wonder, ‘Ha, ha, ha’ and fell down. He did not give any information. Whosoever climbed, he cried, ‘Ha, ha, ha’ and fell in. Who would then give information?”                                       

 

Jada Bharat, Duttatreya and
Sukadeva ­ all Brahmajnanis

“Jada Bharat and Duttatreya could give no information after having vision of Brahman. One’s I-ness vanishes after samadhi on attaining Brahmajnana. So Rama Prasad says: ‘If you cannot attain (Brahmajnana) yourself, O mind, take Rama Prasad with you.’ The mind must merge. After that Rama Prasad i.e. ego must merge. Only then one attains the Brahmajnana (knowledge of Brahman).”

A Bhakta — Sir, did Sukadeva not attain jnana?

Sri Ramakrishna — Some say that Sukadeva only saw and touched the ocean of Brahman, he did not go down and dive deep into it. That is why he could return and impart so much instruction. According to others, he returned after attaining Brahmajnana ­ for instruction to mankind. He was to narrate the Bhagavata to Prikshit and also impart so much of instruction to mankind. So the Lord did not merge his ‘I’ altogether. His ‘I of knowledge’ was retained.

 

Instruction to Keshab ­
organization (religious group) is not right

A Bhakta — Can one keep an organization or the like intact after attaining Brahmajnana?

Sri Ramakrishna — I talked to Keshab Sen about Brahmajnana. Keshab said, ‘Please elaborate it further.’ I said, ‘If I talk further, you will not be able to keep your organization intact.’ ‘Then please don’t tell any more, sir,’ said Keshab. (All laugh.) Then I said to Keshab, ‘I and mine these alone constitute ignorance. I am the doer, this is my wife, that is my son, these are my possessions, honour, respect and so on ­ such feelings arise due to ignorance.’ Thereupon Keshab said, ‘Sir, if one gives up the ‘I’ nothing whatsoever would remain.’ I said, ‘Keshab, I am not asking you to renounce your ‘I’ altogether. You only give up your ‘unripe I’.  I am the doer, this is my wife or son, I am the guru and so on ­ this pride is ‘unripe I,’ you give it up. Renounce it and keep the ‘ripe I’   ­ that I am His servant, I am His bhakta, I am not the doer, He is the doer.’  

 

It is right to preach religion only when one has received the Lord’s commandment

A Bhakta — Can the ‘ripe I’ create an organization?

Sri Ramakrishna — I said to Keshab Sen, ‘That ‘I’ am the leader of the organization, ‘I’ have made it, that ‘I’ impart instruction to mankind ­ this ‘I’ is the ‘unripe I’.’ It is very difficult to propagate a religion. Without the Lord’s command it cannot be done. His commandment is needed. For example, Sukadeva had received the command to narrate the story of the Bhagavata. There is nothing wrong if one preaches and instructs mankind after seeing the Lord and having received His commandment. The ‘I’ of such a person is not ‘unripe I’ ­ it is the ‘ripe I’.

“I asked Keshab to renounce the ‘unripe I’. There is no harm in having the ‘I of a servant’ or the ‘I of a bhakta.’

“You are talking of organization. So many people are going out of it. Keshab said, ‘Sir, during these three years people from this group have gone back to the other group. They even used impolite language while leaving.’ I said, ‘Why don’t you see the signs? What comes out of making disciples indiscriminately?’ ”   

 

Instruction to Keshab, accept the Primeval Power

“And I said to Keshab, ‘Accept the Primeval Power. Brahman and Shakti (His power) are inseparable. He who is Brahman is Himself Shakti. So long as there is body consciousness, you are also conscious of duality. They are two only in name.’ Keshab had accepted Kali (Shakti).

“One day Keshab came here with his disciples. I said to him, ‘I would like to hear your lecture.’ He delivered his lecture seated in the chandni. Then we came to the ghat and had a long talk seated there. I said, ‘He who is Bhagavan is Himself a bhakta in one form, He Himself is the Bhagavata (God’s word) in another form. You people please say, Bhagavata-Bhakta-Bhagavan.’ Keshab said it and his bhaktas also repeated together Bhagavata-Bhakta-Bhagavan. When I said, ‘Please say, Guru Krishna Vaishnava,’ Keshab said, ‘Sir, not that far. If I say so, people will call me orthodox.’ ”  

 

Past story of his life ­ Sri Ramakrishna swoons on seeing the ways of maya

“It is very difficult to go beyond the three gunas. It is not possible before God-realization. The jiva (embodied soul) lives in the domain of maya. This very maya does not let one know the Lord; the same maya keeps the human being in ignorance. Hriday once brought a little calf. One day I saw that he tied it in the garden to graze. I asked him, ‘Hriday, why do you tie it there everyday?’ Hriday replied, ‘Uncle, I will send this calf to the village. When it grows, it will be yoked to the plough.’ As he said these words, I became unconscious and fell down. I said to myself, ‘Such are the ways of maya!’ Whither Kamarpukur and Seor are! So far away from Calcutta! This little calf will tread so long a path! There it will grow. And later after so many days it will pull the plough ­ this is what is called the world, this is what is called maya.

“It was after a long time that I regained consciousness.”

Chapter Three

In samadhi

Sri Ramakrishna remains merged in samadhi day and night. How his days and nights pass! At times he talks of God or takes part in singing hymns with the bhaktas. At about three or four o’clock M. sees that Sri Ramakrishna is seated on the smaller cot ­ lost in divine emotion. After some time he begins to talk to the Divine Mother.

While talking to the Mother, he uttered it once, “Mother, why You have given him only one kala (one sixteenth part of divine power)?” Thakur remains silent for a moment. He again says, “I understand Mother. This one kala will be enough for him. This one kala alone will enable him to do Your work ­ to preach mankind.”

Does Thakur transmit spiritual powers to his inner disciples in this way? What is it all about? Later these disciples would teach mankind ­ is he making arrangements for this? Besides M., Rakhal is also there in the room. Thakur is still in divine emotion. Says he to Rakhal, “You grew angry with me; why did I reprimand you? There was a reason for it: Reason, the medicine would work well. When the disease of spleen advances, a leaf of mansa (herbal leaf) has to be applied to it.”

After a while he says, “I have seen that Hazra is dry like a piece of wood. Even then he lives here. Why so? This has a meaning. Without Jatila and Kutila (the trouble making mother and sister-in-law of Radha), the leela does not nourish.”

(To M.) “You must accept the forms of the Lord. Do you know the significance of the Divine Mother in the form of Jagadhatri? It means that She supports the world. If She doesn’t support, doesn’t protect the world would fall, it would perish. He who can tame the elephant of his mind, it is only in his heart that Jagadhatri dawns.”

Rakhal — Mana-matt-kari (the mind is a mad elephant).

Sri Ramakrishna — That is why the lion of the Singhavahini (Divine Mother riding a lion) keeps the elephant under its control.

At dusk the arati is being performed in the temple. Thakur Sri Ramakrishna is chanting the name of gods and goddesses in his room. Incense has been burnt in the room. Thakur is seated on the smaller cot with folded hands. He is meditating on the Mother. Govinda Mukherji of Belgharia and some of his friends enter the room, offer their pranams and take their seats on the floor. M. is seated there. Rakhal too is seated.

Outside there is the moon. The whole nature is still and smiling. Everybody in the room is seated still and gazing at the serene image of Thakur. Thakur is under the spell of bhava (divine emotion). After a while he begins to talk. He is still surcharged with bhava.               

 

The form of Shyama ­ Purusha and Prakriti ­ Yogamaya ­ Shivakali, and Radha and Krishna ­ explanation of the forms ­ superior devotee ­ the path of reason

Sri Ramakrishna (surcharged with bhava) — Tell me if you have any doubt. I shall explain everything.

Govinda and other devotees begin to think.

Govinda — Revered sir, why does Shyama[1] have such complexion?

Sri Ramakrishna — It is because She is at distance. Going nearer, there is no colour. The water in a pond looks dark from a distance. Go near it, take some in your hand and you will see that it has no colour. Sky appears blue from a distance. See the sky that is nearer, you will find no colour. The nearer you go to the Lord, the more you will realize that He has neither name nor form. Move a little away, you will again find your same Mother Shyama ­ She has the complexion as that of the grass and flowers. Is Shyama Purusha[2] or Prakriti[3]? A bhakta performed worship. Another man came and saw the deity wearing a sacred thread. The latter said, ‘You have put the sacred thread round the Mother’s neck.’ The former said, ‘Brother, only you have recognized the Mother. As for me, I have never been able to know whether She is Purusha or Prakriti. So I have put a sacred thread round her neck.’

“The One who is Shyama is also Brahman. The One who has form is also formless. The Being who has attributes is also without-attributes. Brahman is Shakti and Shakti is Brahman. Inseparable. The male Sachchidananda and the female Sachchidananda.”

Govinda — Why do we call Yogamaya?

Sri Ramakrishna — Yogamaya means the union of Purusha and Prakriti. Whatever you see is all the union of Purusha and Prakriti. The image of Shiva and Kali, Kali stands on Shiva. Shiva is lying like a corpse. Kali is looking at Shiva. All this is the union of Purusha and Prakriti. Purusha is inactive, so Shiva is lying like a corpse. It is in conjunction with Purusha that Prakriti performs all Her actions ­ She creates, preserves and dissolves.

“The dual image of Radha and Krishna (both Radha and Krishna in one piece) also signifies the same. Because of this union they are bent towards each other. To denote this very union Sri Krishna wears a pearl in his nose and Radha a blue stone in hers. Radha has the fair complexion of a bright pearl. Sri Krishna is of dark complexion. For this reason Radha wears the blue stone. Furthermore, Sri Krishna’s apparel is yellow while that of Radha is blue.

“Who is a superior devotee? He who sees after attaining Brahmajnana that God alone has become the universe and the twenty-four categories. He first reaches the roof by discriminating  ‘not this, not this.’ Then he sees that the steps are also made of the same material ­ brick, lime, and brick-dust ­ with which the roof is made. Then he sees that Brahman Himself has become the creatures and the universe, all.

“Mere reasoning! I spit on it! I spit on it! It is of no use.”

Thakur spits the nectar of his mouth.

“Why remain dry by reasoning? So long as you have the consciousness of ‘I’ and ‘You’, have pure devotion at His lotus feet.

(To Govinda) “At times I say, ‘You are I and I am You!’ And sometimes it remains only You. The ‘I’ then disappears and is not traceable.

“It is Shakti that becomes the avatara. According to one school of thought, Rama and Krishna are but the two waves of the Ocean of chidananda (Bliss and Consciousness).

“After the attainment of advaita jnana (knowledge of non-duality) comes chaitanya (consciousness). Then I see that God alone inheres all the things as consciousness. After consciousness comes ananda (bliss).

“Advaita, Chaitanya and Nityananda[4].”

 

The Lord has forms ­ longingness comes after sensuous desires vanish

(To M.) “I say to you, ‘Don’t disbelieve in the forms; in the forms of the Lord. Have faith that God has forms and meditate on the form that you love most.’

(To Govinda) “Do you know what it is? So long as the desire for sensory enjoyments remains, the earnest longing for knowing God and His realization does not come. The child plays with his toys forgetting everything else. Cajole him with sandesh, he will eat just a piece of it. When he does not like even his toy and does not relish sandesh he says, ‘I will go to the mother.’ He no longer likes sandesh. A person whom he does not know, whom he has never seen, if he says to it, ‘Come along, I shall take you to your mother,’ the child will go with him. He will go with anyone who carries it in his arms.

“When one has done with the enjoyment of worldly things, one becomes restless for the Lord. How to realize Him remains his only concern. He listens to everybody who tells him anything about God.”

M. (to himself), “Only when  one has done with the desire for worldly enjoyments one becomes restless for the Lord.”

 

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