1.

M. (to Pranesh) ­ It is beautiful. It is not a publication, it is tapasya ­ so much of thought, deep thought, you had to give to it!

Manmath ­ I have greatly benefited by reading the narration of your reaction on your darshan of Thakur in Girish Babu’s house.

M. ­ Yes, I have just recorded whatever reaction I had in my mind on seeing him. (Happily) You have a beautiful power of observation. How you have caught him!

Manmath ­ Can a person come down from samadhi? Some people say that one cannot.

M. ­ Mahimacharan also asked the same question. Thakur said, ‘Then what about Shankaracharya, Ramanuja, such people? And then, what about Sukadeva and Hanuman?’ He said that the avataras can come out of it. Otherwise, who would train humanity?

"(Laughing) Mahimacharan thought that all can become Sri Krishna by spiritual practice. As soon as the obstacles are removed, it is possible. The Bel tree can become the Mango tree.

"So, Thakur made Girish Ghosh and Mahimacharan reason with each other. Girish believed that nobody but an avatara could be an avatara. If the power of Krishna was manifest in anybody, he surely was Krishna.

"Mahimacharan accepted it. He could not stand against Girish Babu and one day Thakur also said to Mahimacharan that only the avatara could be an avatara, not any human being. That day Mahima did not agree.

"(Laughing) Thakur said, ‘You did well by agreeing with Girish. Otherwise, he would have torn your throat like a dog tearing a piece of flesh.’"

Manmath ­ Mahimacharan was perhaps a jnani?

M. ­ Yes, he became a jnani by reading books. Thakur used to say, ‘One is something else when you have the right jnana’. He would add, ‘The jnani gets rid of his ego. Whatever little of ‘I’ sense left is there for teaching the mankind. That’s the ‘I of wisdom’, the ‘I of devotion,’ the ‘I of slave’. This ‘I’ cannot do any harm.

"He said, ‘So long as there is the reflection of the sun, one’s intellect is yet centred in the body ­ till then, one has not attained jnana perfectly.’ Later on, he sees that the reflection is not the sun. Only the sun of jnana, the real sun remains. It is in this state that one has soham ­ I am He.

"He said, ‘Just as there is no shadow at mid-day, just as it becomes one with the body, similarly, there is no ‘I’ in Brahmanjnana. Then the individual soul becomes one with the Supreme Soul.’

"He said, ‘The mind and intellect are like water and the body is like a vessel. During the period of sadhana, the reflection of Param-Brahman appears in the mind and the intellect. Later on, one sees that there is no reflection by His grace. This reflection gets covered with ‘Satchidananda’ with Parama-Brahman.’ This is the path of reason.

"One can attain Brahmajnana ­ the jnana of oneness ­ also by the path of devotion. The Gopis became Krishna Himself by thinking upon Krishna. They lost their awareness that they were women."

Manmath ­ Why did Totapuri become like that at the end?

M. ­ He had gone by the path of ‘Brahman is truth, the world an illusion’ to attain the jnana of soham (I am He). Even after coming back (from samadhi), he had the same jnana. So he used to say, ‘Prakriti is an illusion, the world is an illusion.’ Thakur attained Brahmajnana by uttering ‘Ma, Ma’. Even upon coming back, he saw the same ­ that the Mother had Herself become all ­ the plant and tree, house and living quarters ­ everything is Mother. He gave Thakur the jnana of the formless, attribute-less, Parama-Brahman, of Nirvikalpa samadhi in other words. And Thakur gave him, ‘All is Mother ­ Brahman is true, the world is true.’

"Thakur attained Brahmajnana by the path of devotion and Totapuri by the path of jnana. Totapuri first attained the knowledge that ‘Brahma is true and the world an illusion’. Thakur attained the jnana that ‘Brahma is true and the world is true’. Later on, Totapuri realised that ‘both Brahman and the world were true’. Thakur realised that ‘Brahman was true and the world an illusion’. Thakur had Brahmajnana both by the path of jnana and the path of devotion."

Brahmachari Pranesh ­ But Thakur preached the path of devotion to all.

M. ­ Almost all of us are eligible only for the path of devotion. Very few are fit for the path of jnana. Besides, it is age of Kali. Our life depends upon food, our life is short. In this age, the path of jnana does not suit all ­ particularly the householder.

Brahmachari Pranesh ­ The western savants, some of them, say that Gita had been written in three periods by three persons ­ each of the six chapters were written by one man. Some other says that initially there were only twelve chapters and that six chapters were added later on. What is Thakur’s definite opinion on this matter?

M. ­ Thakur said that nothing in the Gita can be contradicted. It is all true.

Brahmachari Pranesh ­ Is it that the words, the language and the ideas are all true or is it that only the ideas are? What did Thakur mean? What is the significance of his words ­ ‘It cannot be contradicted.’

M. ­ Only he can tell what he meant by what he said. How can we understand him? Even so, our human intellect says he meant this about the ideas.

"And the western savants are almost unable to understand its significance. Unless the significance is realised, the expression is not fully correct. We believed that Thakur’s words are a revelation. Thakur’s life is the manifestation of the Gita."

2.

Manmath ­ In one place, he (Ram Babu) says in the context of Thakur: What is the need of more of tapasya when you have seen him?

M. ­ Yes, Ram Babu said that he had taken Thakur in that way. In other words, it is after the tapasya of many lives that one has the darshan of the Lord in a human body. More of tapasya is not needed for them.

"Then there are people of another class. They are made to practice tapasya for teaching others. How much tapasya did the Swamijis undergo!

"Somebody (M.) was going to commit suicide. Or had been facing great difficulties. Narendra had to undergo such difficult days of starvation etc. Why all that? So that one may be able to apply his own experience of it in the case of others."

M. ­ The householders live with a bit of amateur religion. They have no right to instruct others. Why? Because, they live amidst woman and gold.

"It is for the other class, the sadhus, to impart instruction. That’s why, they have been made to renounce all. Besides, He has made them undergo tapasya.

"What great difficulties did Vivekananda face! Once, he had nothing to eat for three days in Bhagalpur. Seeing an individual approaching, he said that he would feed us. Who was with Swamiji? It was Gangadhar. Swamiji said to him, ‘This fellow is a nice man.’ The individual did bow and ask him where he was going to have his meal of charity. ‘Here, at some place,’ said Swamiji. The man invited them to his house and they accepted to go with him. And they recite holy verses as they go along. Had they not done so, how could they have been taken as great sadhus? (All Laugh) Yes, that’s what people think.

"They were sitting there ­ that round thing made of bricks on the Ganga where people sit. What do you call it?"

Antevasi ­ That which one finds at intervals on the embankment ­ rampart .

M. ­ May be. What a hardship he had! He used to tell us all this.

M. ­ Once he fell unconscious near Almora. He had had no food for three days. Somebody then offered him a cucumber to eat. Eating that saved his life.

"These people have faced such hard times."

Manmath ­ Why did Thakur give him such trials of life, when he loved Swamiji so much?

M. ­ To make of him an expert pilot. Only then could he be a world teacher. He would then be able to realise how hard it is to go without food. That is the reason why he started Sevashramas (homes of service), relief work ­ so much for the service of the poor.

"Take the Belur Math. Why did he establish it? So as to provide a shelter to those who renounce the world. It is like the perch of a bird tired after a day long flight. It would serve as the sadhu’s perch. And he prophesied that some boys would come there later on who will not be able to bear so much strain of homelessness. This is the reason why he established it. Here, they would find a handful of rice and shelter over their head. These people would not be able to bear the hard life that they have had. This is why he founded the Math."

M. (to the bhaktas) ­ To compare sadhus with householders! As the Yogopanishad mentions, the difference between the two is as between the Mount Sumeru and a grain of mustard, or the vast ocean and the water in the small pit made by the hoof of a cow ­ such is the difference between the two.

"It does not however, mean that the devotees are of little significance ­ the householder devotees have their importance. Yet, the difference between the two is like that. Thakur would sometimes say, ‘Those who have attained jnana while remaining householders, are as though living in a house of glass, while the all-renouncing persons are standing in the open in a flood of light.’ While talking of the devotees, he used to say, ‘Not one of them who come here is worldly.’ In other words, these persons are worldly only from the outside, inwardly they are sannyasis."

M. (to the bhaktas) ­ What a great influence Chaitanya Deva has shed over the Vaishnava bards! Just mark the sweetness of this verse of Narottam Das: ‘When shall I take to the holy begging in sweet Vrindavan?’ Is the verse only so sweet? No, it is also the high flight of the idea and its depth. He is talking of sannyasa. Madhukari (the holy begging) means to collect like a honey-bee. The bee collects honey drop by drop and constructs a beehive. Similarly, madhukari means to live upon and feed oneself with the food of charity collected from home to home.

M. (to a certain bhakta) ­ Jiva Goswami was a nephew of Roop Goswami. He was very learned. A top class pundit arrived. Jiva Goswami defeated even him in religious debate. Not only this, he made the pundit accept his defeat in writing. Hearing this Roop Goswami said, ‘I would not like to look at his face. Having renounced all, having become a sannyasi, to ask for a note of victory!’ Sad in mind, Jiva Goswami roamed about for a month or two. Thereafter, the friends of Jiva Goswami asked Roop Goswami what were the marks of a Vaishnava. He said, ‘Love of the repetition of the sacred name, compassion for jiva (the creature) and rendering service to the Vaishnavas.’ The friends said, ‘Compassion for the jiva is also a mark of a Vaishnava. Why don’t you then show compassion to Jiva?’ (All laugh). Thus, Roop Goswami pardoned Jiva. To care for name and procure a note of victory, though a sadhu ­ such is the affair! (Laughter). Doesn’t the all-renouncing one have to train humanity by his conduct?

A Bhakta ­ Doctor Babu, we are all praise for you and we thank you. You take M. to different places by your car and fulfil his desires.

M. (to a particular bhakta) ­ The yogis don’t sleep long at night. They also eat sparingly ­ especially at night. God is attained only after doing so much.

M. (to the bhaktas) ­ Thakur said to Keshab Sen, ‘You people look at light through a chink.’ Those who look at God while living in family are in this state. See, to whom he said this? To Keshab Babu! ­ He, who was the observed of all observers, he, for whose sight, people are crazy, to him he says this!

"If that be so, what use are mutual admiration societies? What is the value of the words of these mutual admirers?

"How he loved Keshab Babu! The latter was an authority on religion of his time.

[On me alone fix thy mind. Let thy understanding dwell in Me. In Me alone, shalt thou live alone thereafter. Of this, there is no doubt. (Gita 12:8)]

"Giving up all, engage yourself in the pursuit of God offering your mind and soul to Him, then alone, you can have His darshan. So difficult is the attainment of God.

"Thakur used to say, ‘Those who have a busy life can draw succour from yoga’ i.e. to say ‘routine life’ (from disciplined activity).

"And he also said, ‘Those who are weak in body can also draw help from yoga i.e. to say actions in a measured way. Those who practice this, their life becomes peaceful and concentrated on the Lord.

"Unless one takes the vow of do or die, one cannot realise God. Even this can come about only by His grace ­ this Himalayan determination.

"To do or die ­ either I will realise the mantra or give up the body ­ such a resolve is needed!

"The yogi needs to control his food first of all. ‘jite rase jitam sarvam’ (Victory over the tongue is an all-encompassing victory). Thakur put a great stress on this. Control the tongue and you have won victory over desire, anger and so on, to a great extent."

A Particular Bhakta ­ Those who eat in a mess of a boarding house, their food becomes the food of a yogi on its own.

M. ­ Even so, they take a lot of chillies. (Laughter).

M. ­ If it is beyond you to control all this, there is the other way i.e. to cry and say to Thakur with sincerity. He would do all for you. This is His promise. A sincere longing and crying are needed.

Morton School, Calcutta,

Thursday, 4th December, 1924,

19th of Agrahayana, 1331 (B.Y.),

The eighth day of the bright fortnight,

2 Dandas/54 Palas.