1.

M. (to Jagabandhu) – Just see, how enjoyable and attractive is Thakur’s manner of speaking. Yet, he has not eschewed pointing out one’s defects. (Overwhelmed with a humorous mood) One day he said, ‘Do you know what is Balaram’s disposition? That you may dance, you may sing, you may enjoy and have fun but by yourself!’ In other words, money would be spent on calling a musician.

"One day he said, ‘This is the disposition of Balaram — of a brahmin’s cow. It should eat little, yield a lot of cow dung and give milk in torrents.’ (M. laughs loudly).

"One day Balaram Babu had arranged a horse driven coach for Thakur to go to Dakshineswar. There were so many coaches moving on the road. Somebody said, ‘There is the coach coming.’ Thakur said, ‘Get away. This is not our coach since it is moving so fast, dhup dhup. Our coach will be rickety, lachar pachar.’ (Laughter).

"And one day a coach was hired for one rupee a quarter. Thakur said, ‘So less! When they bring Vani Shah’s coach they pay three rupees two annas.’ Balaram Babu said, ‘It can happen.’ While the coach was on its way it wouldn’t move ahead after a while. The coachman beats the horse mercilessly. The horse does not move even then. Thakur said, ‘I say, what has happened?’ The coachman said, ‘The horse is resting for a while, my master.’ (Laughter). The horse was from the charnel-pits — it pulled with full strength, even then the coach refused to budge. How could it move, tell me? The horse was in such a great exasperation. (Loud and long laughter).

"And then look at the other side. Nobody else was allowed to talk ill of Balaram Babu in the presence of Thakur. One day he scolded Golap Ma as she was talking ill of him. What words he used for reprimanding her I cannot remember. (After thinking for a while, smiling) Yes, I remember. He said to Golap Ma, ‘It is not just bringing eight annas worth of rasagullas and distributing them. How much Balaram has to spend! In Cuttack, in Orissa, Kothar and Puri. And also he also spends in Calcutta, Vrindaban and so many other places. All that in the service of the deity. Is it done because you say so?’ And he added, ‘He lives in Calcutta so that he can come here to visit me.’ Sometimes he said, ‘Balaram has to bear so many expenses. I hear, he will go to some other place, to some estate. There he will not have to spend so much.’

"On the one hand he found fault, on the other he praised him. He would do so himself. The others were not forbidden to praise anybody. But if anyone talked ill of others he could not be saved. Just as the mother protects her children, similarly Thakur protected the bhaktas."

M. (to Antevasi) – The first class of evidence is that which is recorded by the writer on the same day after seeing with his own eyes, and hearing with his own ears what Thakur said or did. The second class is that which is recorded much later though it was heard and seen by the author himself. And the third class is that which was collected by hearing from others. Along with it there is another class of evidence which one comes across at times. It can be termed as fourth class of evidence. The writer has mixed up what he himselfWhat the writer himself heard and saw, but did not write it immediately, he has mixed it up with what he heard from somebody else.

M. (to Antevasi) – The Kathamrita is the first class evidence. What I saw Thakur doing with my own eyes and what great sayings I heard from my own ears, I recorded them in my diary on the same day on returning home. Sometimes I wrote for days together, for there were long conversations on some particular days. I have recorded all these divine sights and divine words in the Kathamrita. In the main part of the book, I was present in all the scenes narrated therein.

Antevasi – The reminiscences of Ashwini Dutt and the story of Baranagar Math etc. have also found a place in the Kathamrita.

M. – Not in the main text. They are written in the appendices. In the main book, there are all such direct evidences that I saw with my own eyes and heard with my own ears.

"It is very valuable for the lawyers. They are cultured men, you see. Haven’t you seen what Ashwini Dutt has written? He says, ‘Am I so fortunate as M. that I could write about Thakur giving the day of the week, the date and the position of the stars?’ Before writing about Thakur he has offered his apology by saying so. Please bring the Kathamrita."

M. (to Jagabandhu) – Just hear what he says. He writes, ‘But I have not come with a fortune such as M. that I should be able to write the day, the date and the time of the darshan of his holy feet and record exactly all that fell from his blessed lips. I am writing as far as I can remember. It is possible that I may assign the talk of one day to some other day. Besides, I have forgotten so much.’

A Certain Bhakta – Swami Bhumananda said, ‘Master Mahashay has given three kinds of evidences to dishonour Sarat Maharaj’s Lila Prasanga (Sri Ramakrishna the Great Master).’

M. (wonder-struck and sad) – What is this? How does he know why it was written? I don’t accept what he says. Let him say what he wants. Who can stop him?

"Swami Vivekananda knew it. He wrote to me, ‘The move is quite original and never was the life of a great teacher brought before the public untarnished by the writer’s mind as you are doing.’

"The other books which are coming out are all confusing because they contain second and third class evidences.

"This book is the first record in the world containing such an account of the conversations and life of an avatara.

"The coming out of the Kathamrita has done another big good. In future, whosoever writes a diary or a book shall be greatly benefited by knowing about these three classes of evidences. While writing on any subject, they will be very careful while offering their opinion on it.

"Since ‘the Kathamrita’ has been written on the basis of first class evidence, the lawyers, the scientists and then the wWesterners will be able to appreciate the real value of this book."

M. (to Antevasi) – Just read the page where these three classes of evidences are talked about.

Antevasi (reads) – (The main portions are).

"First — Direct and recorded on the same day... this kind of version is obtained by direct seeing and hearing — along with the year, the date, the day of the week and the lunar date.

"Second — Direct but unrecorded at the time of the Master... this kind of version is also very good. The record of the other avataras is generally of this kind..... Herein there is a greater possibility of mistakes than what is recorded immediately.

"Third — Hearsay and unrecorded at the time of the Master... what one hears about the life from the devotees, all belongs to the third class.

"At the time of the writing Sri Sri Kathamrita M. relied on the first class evidence…"

M. – All these volumes (of the Kathamrita) were written after so much of seeing and hearing. I had to read the Law of Evidence. They do not know it. If there is a slight mistake in the evidence the whole value of it goes down.

M. (to Antevasi) – Haven’t you read the Law of Evidence, and the Criminal Procedure Code?

Antevasi – Yes Sir, I have read them the way one studies in colleges. I read in broad outlines.

M. – You have seen it. A slight mistake is detected in the evidence and it almost spoils the whole case. The lawyer says to the judge, ‘My Lord, he is not reliable.’

"The force that direct evidence has is not there in what one has heard from somebody. That is why, the judge asks, ‘Did you see it yourself?’ By seeing and hearing oneself there is a greater force. And if one says, ‘I have heard it so,’ it has no force.

"I visited the court so often. By seeing and hearing all this I have arrived on this conclusion. (Laughing) W.C. Bannerji once said, ‘My Lord, he is an English speaking witness.’ Such persons enjoy more respect. They are very reliable because when it goes into the hands of a translator some difference creeps in. It is not exactly the same."

2.

Mohan – Today Yajnavalkya is going to be staged in the (Belur) Math. The sadhus will themselves enact. But Ananga Maharaj has forbidden us to go there.

M. (smiling laughing) – What is the name of our new friend who comes here and is studying Homeopathy.

Mohan – Upadhyay.

M. – He did the right thing. He had to see somebody, so he went. A person told him, ‘No, you will not be able to see him.’ He replied, ‘No, I will not listen to you. A great disciple of his has asked me to go and see him. Why should I listen to you?’ Aha, how simple-minded is this man! He said, ‘Why should I listen to you?’ (Laughter).

"The gatekeeper did not let Thakur enter the shrine of Kali. Thakur gave him a blow of the fist and entered inside. The treasurer wrote to the proprietors, ‘The younger Bhattacharya Mahashay does not listen to anybody.’ Mathur Babu sent a message, ‘Nobody should say anything to him.’ He is just gave a blow of the fist and entered. (Laughter)."

M. (to a certain person) – When people spend the night at the Math they get very worried. Besides, this is the rainy season. That’s why they say so. There is no objection in case of those who return.

A Certain Bhakta – I am afraid of them, they have a critical look. Some entertain any sort of feeling about us.

M. – What should they then talk of later on.

The bhakta – Yes Sir. When such a feeling rises in our mind on seeing them, surely they must be thinking anything about us.

M. – Let it be as it is. But you have to get your work done anyhow. Are all people alike in the world? The right thing is to do your work without seeing the fault of others. If you go to eat a jujube, its thorns can hurt you. One should proceed after thinking over all this. One must not see the fault of others. And, one should pray to Thakur to grant you the company of holy. The sea is not going to be still. You must bath as it is. When you have the yearning Thakur himself straightens your path.

The Doctor – Sir, the lawyer has drafted this letter.

M. – Please read, let me hear it.

M. (after the reading is over) – Neglect of duty intentionally will not do. By doing this perhaps you may succeed — ‘why did you not pursue it? There is nothing [in this draft] which can prosecute the offender.’

M. (pointing at the sky, joyfully) – This is our drop scene. (Laughter).

M. (to the devotees, gravely) – I have not been able to understand anything that has been read. I have understood only one or two things. One is ‘death’ and the other is ‘amrita’ (immortality). Now try to understand what substance Thakur has given us in plain and easy words.

Durgapada (Healing Balm) – Those who have read the Kathamrita will not like all this. Why should they read it? One can understand nothing in it. I have read all the Upanishads once.

M. – No. One must read it. Then alone one will have greater faith and reverence for it (the Kathamrita). If one doesn’t read the Upanishad one wonders what it contains. After reading, one realizes that one gets at a little of its essence after a lot of labour. And Thakur’s words contain the whole essence.

Durgapada – Having read all the Upanishads, I have seen that there is nothing much in them. One the other hand what Thakur has said in plain words, there is also nothing like it there. These days those who read the Upanishad say that earlier people used to eat the [flesh of] bull (in the Putra Mantha Yajna), and such other things.

M. – Does everybody feel the same way? The antiquarians take them one way, the historians and philosophers in their own ways.

"Thakur used to tell a story. A fair was being held at some place. There were a number of idols of gods and goddesses. Every votary was looking at the image he was concerned with. There was a woman at one place. She was hitting a man with the broom. This picture only attracted one person. He stood there calling all others to come, and showed it to them, saying, ‘Come on, come here, just see how amusing this is.’ (All laugh). One sees everything in the bhava (mood) that one has."

Durgapada – Well, these all (Upanishads and other such books) are so difficult.? How did people understand them?

M. – That is reason why the country went into a deep sleep because of karma kanda (rituals). That is why, the avataras come again and again. Sri Krishna came. He brought the essence of all Vedas and Upanishads in one place by saying the Gita. What is the essence of work, this too he told. God Himself comes down in every age to reveal the inner meaning of all the scriptures. Lately, Thakur came and did this work through ‘the Kathamrita’.

M. (to Durgapada) – Did you go to the Math recently? Tulasi Maharaj has come, did you have his darshan?

Durgapada – No Sir, I couldn’t go again. Only the other day we had a conversation in the Math.

M. (to Durgapada) – One should go to the Math in all humility. One should not engage with sadhus in arguments and reasoning. One should only ask them, ‘How can God be attained?’ Just this question.

Durgapada – Somebody asked just this. Tulasi Maharaj replied, ‘Have I seen God that I can tell you how He can be attained?’

M. – These people do not tell all things to everybody. If you ask them singly they may graciously tell.

Durgapada – Thakur said, ‘As many religions so many paths — all religions are true.’ I asked, ‘Is fetishism a religion, is it true or not, like the Nuri puja of the Santhals?’

"They perform Nuri puja so that they may have better crop of paddy and the cattle remain healthy. There is no conception of God therein. Can it be a true religion where there is no God?"

M. – How is it possible? Even in puja (worship) with a motive, there has to be God. How is religion possible otherwise?

Durgapada – They do not accept this.

Mohan – But Max Muller said, ‘Those who perform Nuri puja also have faith in a superior being. He sends rain, paddy, prey etc.’ He also said, ‘It is a human necessity to believe in such a person.’

Durgapada – What proof is there that they do believe in a superior being?

Mohan – What proof is there that they do not believe so? Max Muller accepted this principle from the statements of his reporters. These people understood by staying with them that the Santhals also believe in a superior being, though they did not say so. That’s why he said so. This kind of acceptance is also essential.

M. – When one accepts a powerful man it is religion, whether one says it by the word of mouth or not. It is enough if it remains within. Thakur said: The baby cannot call his father as father. He has love for him within, only he cannot say so. He has bhava but not words.

M. – Thakur went to Suresh Babu’s garden in Kankurgachhi. He sent for Pratap Majumdar. He had then returned from the West. Thakur asked him, ‘How did you find the people of that land?’ Pratap Majumdar replied, ‘They are atheists. They believe in a power.’ Hearing this Thakur said, ‘Then they are not atheist. Those who live by science and if they believe in a superior power how can they be atheist?’ It is not right to brand a man atheist if he believes in the acts of Shakti (power) and Its existence. They are not particularly acquainted with that power — they are undeveloped. This is the only difference.

Mohan – Some of the scientists in that land name that power as ‘unknown X’. It is this who is omnipotent. But the man will not be able to reach It. That very power in intellect etc. is the ideal of all men. Though one cannot reach It but the man’s duty is to walk parallel to this power — like the two rails on the railway line. But the man will never be able to reach it. The man is a minute creature and that power is so immense. They call it the philosophy of infinite progress. If the man does not keep Him as the ideal and does not walk parallel to Him, the society will go down. It is very essential. Max Plank, the German inventor of the quantum theory, is the chief propagator of this group.

Durgapada – This belief of theirs cannot be called religion even if they believe in the existence of this power and its necessity. They believe in effort but not in grace. Tulasi Maharaj does not accept grace.

Mohan – Shankra says in this mantra, ‘Yamevaisha vrinute tena labhyah,’ that the sadhaka (spiritual aspirant) who has a firm determination to attain Him will only do so. The atman will manifest itself before him. Here too, it is not grace but effort.

M. – But we have heard from Thakur’s lips that there is no way but His grace. Yes, we have heard this too that if there is a deep longing to attain Him, if one makes an effort with a resolve to do or die His grace may descend. He said: This effort is also His charity, His grace. Effort and grace are the same thing — only there is a difference of mode. At the end, effort takes the shape of grace. The result of effort is grace.

M. – For us therse is no other way than the company of sadhus. The beginning, middle and end of Thakur’s words is just this — company of sadhus. One should keep company of sadhus. One should go to them with reverence. One should pray beforehand: May I not argue with them. I will have their darshan, offer pranam and render them service. On seeing them the consciousness wakes up, you see — having renounced all these people are standing on the path while we are in involved in family life. Many of our friends used to go to the Math in the morning for their darshan and for offering them pranam. It appears, they don’t go now.

Durgapada – Where should they go?

M. – Why, to have darshan of sadhus.

Durgapada – There is no fascination in it.

A Certain Bhakta – There is no personality. Where should we go? All they say is given in books, in scriptures. Even if that being so, people need a personality.

M. – It is a place of advanced spiritual personalities. One should go there knowing this. Swamiji (V.N.), Rakhal Maharaj, Baburam Maharaj lived there had it as their place. Even now there is Tarak Maharaj.

Durgapada – In that case Dakshineswar is better. It is Thakur’s place. He enacted his leela there for thirty years.

M. – No. That is there. It (the Math) also is a special place. His (Sri Ramakrishna’s) words live here in a concrete form. Thakur said, ‘Having renounced all one should call on Him.’ Here this is what all are doing. The sadhus are the images of complete renunciation. One must see them. Otherwise, one falls a far behind. Are the sadhus of the math living there at their own will? Having made them give up all, Thakur has brought them there for our education — (for us) who live in household. One must visit the Math.

Morton School, Calcutta

Monday, 8 September 1924

23rd of Bhadra, 1331 (B.Y.)

The tenth day of the bright fortnight

37 Dandas / 27 Palas.